Oh god why am I playing another MMO

[Spectre]

SO yeah, I herd this game has pirates (under a faggy fake name like Corsair). I was interested in my semi-drunk state, and questioned some people about this.

So I got the game, I'm going War - > Mnk/War - > Rng/War - > Cor/Rng

This should work, right?

[Bionic Fireman]

From what little I remember of the game, yeah.

You may want to consider going War - > Thf/War - > Rng/Thf - > Cor/Rng since Cor/Thf is an equally good setup for different stuff, but most class combinations work unless you get a bunch of elitist douche's for party members or your choice is pants-on-head retarded (I.E stuff like War/Smn, Sam/Blm, etc).

And if it doesn't work out, try Sword of the New World if your into pirates.

[Spectre]

From what little I remember of the game, yeah.

You may want to consider going War - > Thf/War - > Rng/Thf - Cor/Rng since Cor/Thf is an equally good setup for different stuff, but either of them work unless you get a bunch of elitist douche's for party members.

And if it doesn't work out, try Sword of the New World if your into pirates.
That may do then, I only picked Monk because I was thinking of a filler class for that part, but if I can make use of it, the better.

[Bionic Fireman]

Thf is always a useful subjob if only for farming stuff and getting rare drops to come more frequently via Treasure hunter I and II.

Which is like half the goddamn game anyway.

[Incognecron]

Nothing works, fucking kill yourself.


Drk/nin = win

[Spectre]

Nothing works, fucking kill yourself.

oh ok, posting pics in a bit.





I wanted to go scholar and whm/blm, but scholar's look fucking stupid.

[Quanta]

From what little I remember of the game, yeah.

You may want to consider going War - > Thf/War - > Rng/Thf - > Cor/Rng since Cor/Thf is an equally good setup for different stuff, but most class combinations work unless you get a bunch of elitist douche's for party members or your choice is pants-on-head retarded (I.E stuff like War/Smn, Sam/Blm, etc).

And if it doesn't work out, try Sword of the New World if your into pirates.
WAR/WHM:
"HAY GUYZ LOOK AT MY LEET HEALZ I IS A PALADIN LOL"

[Bionic Fireman]

Hey, I was playing before everyone decided to get their panties in a knot when a specific job didn't have a specific subjob.

I went from 20War/6Blm to 30War/6Blm without any complaints.

I capped my enfeebling skill damnit!

[Quanta]

Hey, I was playing before everyone decided to get their panties in a knot when a specific job didn't have a specific subjob.

I went from 20War/6Blm to 30War/6Blm without any complaints.

I capped my enfeebling skill damnit!
I hate you. So very, very much. :(

[Pridewolf]

Almost all of the jobs you just mentioned sub ninja.

WAR/NIN, THF/NIN, RNG/NIN, COR/NIN (or COR/RNG)

What I'd do if you're starting out is level monk to 18 first to get your subjob, then take war to 30+ to get the ninja advanced job, then level ninja to 37 so your war can go all the way up without mess or trouble if that's what you want your mainjob to be; if war isn't your mainjob you can still take it to 37 so that any melee main job you do will have access to war as a subjob and ninja as well.

[Bionic Fireman]

Fuck ninja.

Then again, all the jobs I got up into the high sixties and seventies (Dragoon, Samurai, and Dark Knight) never really benefited a whole lot from ninja (Don't say Drk/Nin; double axes is a retarded idea and you know it).

I also stopped playing regularly if at all shortly after CoP came out (Oh sure, I logged on with each new expansion pack save for this one for about a month, but never stayed), so some major shit may've changed with this wings of the goddess pack, but really; I'd avoid ninja like the plague unless you really value being able to use two melee weapons and use their little ninja tricks. Call me biased, but I found ninja not only really goddamn boring, but I've never met a Ninja or a /Ninja who could do his job any better than some other class.

IMO they're all over-rated pricks, but that's just me. Maybe shit's changed there too.

[Spectre]

COR/NIN

No, I would not defile the win and awesomeness of the pirate with the utter failure and faggotry of ninja.

I would literally back hand you IRL if you suggested such bullshit.

[Pridewolf]

No, I would not defile the win and awesomeness of the pirate with the utter failure and faggotry of ninja.

I would literally back hand you IRL if you suggested such bullshit.

I also suggested Cor/rng.

And nobody in their right minds subs ninja on drk, drg (ever), or sam (also never) pre 70. You're thinking two-handed melee which use war or thf sub better. In some endgame cases though, ninja sub is essential for such jobs, especially monk. It's not the dual wielding that attracts big jobs like that, but the survivability of utsusemi at endgame events. Even paladin sometimes will sub ninja instead of war, not for dual wielding but survival. They tank Fafnir as PLD/NIN and keep hate fine. But if you read my post and see what I said, ninja is the best combo for those jobs I mentioned. If you sub war on thf in parties they will ask you to change. Rng/war is good for big numbers but if you're pulling you will die. I'm not saying every job needs /nin like it is inferred you think I said, but a lot of them do.

I myself do not yet have ninja at 37 because none of my jobs need it. However, if I were to do warrior, leveling ninja to 37 would be the first thing I'd do. It's smart, and if you disagree with that you aren't. Sure there are other things to sub, but ninja is essential whether you'd like to believe it or not.

[Bionic Fireman]

Uhhh... yeah...

1) Ninja is in no way essential to anything beyond specific NM and HNM fights and those weird WoW-esque events that SE seems to be trying to put out with each expansion pack. You obviously never played the game before Ninja ever even existed.

2) Endgame =\= the entire gaming experience. Endgame = a way for SE to milk more money out of their subscribers after they level a few jobs up to max level and have really nothing else to do. With all the storyline crap they keep putting in, Endgame won't be all too necessary for at least a year or so. Please do not try to tell me you need everybody down to the last person a very specific job combination for any of these events with no leeway because I already know such an elitist sentiment is pure bullshit.

3) Don't even try to say /nin is essential for PvP. /Nin in PvP is for people who can't play their job properly and need a fall-back.

4) I actually DID have a ninja to 37 because idiots decided that job combos like War/Nin and Thf/Nin were required by law and I was tired of playing solo because some people have their head stuck so far up their own ass that they start to actually leave out their mouth. You can name any nin job combo you want and I can name an equally effective combo not involving the letters "nin". This is assuming said person knows what the hell he's doing. Your right in saying /nin is essential when playing with a community whom screams jobs like dragoon and monk suddenly suck more than a Malaysian prostitute merely because the TP gain on their multi-hit weapon skills were reduced (Oh, how I remember those days...).

One of the main reasons I quit in the first place was because everyone save for a few people were brainwashed stupids spouting the same narrow-minded crap they heard from the next brainwashed stupid.

Long story short: /Nin is essential only if you don't fully know what the hell your doing.

[Pridewolf]

Uhhh... yeah...

1) Ninja is in no way essential to anything beyond specific NM and HNM fights and those weird WoW-esque events that SE seems to be trying to put out with each expansion pack. You obviously never played the game before Ninja ever even existed.

2) Endgame =\= the entire gaming experience. Endgame = a way for SE to milk more money out of their subscribers after they level a few jobs up to max level and have really nothing else to do. With all the storyline crap they keep putting in, Endgame won't be all too necessary for at least a year or so. Please do not try to tell me you need everybody down to the last person a very specific job combination for any of these events with no leeway because I already know such an elitist sentiment is pure bullshit.

3) Don't even try to say /nin is essential for PvP. /Nin in PvP is for people who can't play their job properly and need a fall-back.

4) I actually DID have a ninja to 37 because idiots decided that job combos like War/Nin and Thf/Nin were required by law and I was tired of playing solo because some people have their head stuck so far up their own ass that they start to actually leave out their mouth. You can name any nin job combo you want and I can name an equally effective combo not involving the letters "nin". This is assuming said person knows what the hell he's doing. Your right in saying /nin is essential when playing with a community whom screams jobs like dragoon and monk suddenly suck more than a Malaysian prostitute merely because the TP gain on their multi-hit weapon skills were reduced (Oh, how I remember those days...).

One of the main reasons I quit in the first place was because everyone save for a few people were brainwashed stupids spouting the same narrow-minded crap they heard from the next brainwashed stupid.

Long story short: /Nin is essential only if you don't fully know what the hell your doing.

I'm gonna respond to you in the paragraphs you submitted.

1. You're wrong. It's used for a lot of jobs in a lot of parties. There are some cases where it isn't needed but for the most part on a lot of jobs it is. And yes I did play before ninja existed. War/mnk was an ok dd, with pld being the main tank. If a pld wasn't around a war was forced to tank, it was more difficult back in the day. Stop assuming things and listen.

2. I'm a dragoon. In an endgame shell. The only way I'm elitist is with other dragoons. I know how they are, but they sometimes let me come to events as it, and I eat up all the 'loldrg' statements often. I'm starting to think you have no idea what you're talking about at all saying shit like that knowing what I am. But besides making leeway for myself at times, there are requirements for people to come specific jobs, though sometimes they try something new. For instance, Dark knights and samurai will sometimes sub drg for acc bonus and jumps, and if the drk has a kraken club then they can cause a massive jump attack. Ninjas sometimes sub drk for stun, and some warriors now sub dancer for the sambas. We like to try new things, so once again, stop making assumptions.

3. The best pvp player is a pld/rdm, mnk/sam, or whm/rdm. Those are the best fighters. End of story. If you don't understand how that can possibly work, ie a whm being good at fighting, then shut the fuck up. You don't know what you're talking about. /Nin is ok but it is easily beaten by the right combos in pvp.

4. I said it was smart to do. If you have more subs use them. But get ninja up. War/sam, war/thf, war/drg are all viable combos, hell even war/dnc seems to be good these days. If you want to try new things go for it. But if you want to better yourself and be true to your job you will level ninja as a sub. You'll sometimes be asked to tank as a warrior, what will you do then? Sure you can try the other subs and hell it might even be worthwhile, but it's easier on everyone, even the whm, if you have shadows saving you from being hit. If you disagree with this, again, you're wrong and were probably a leech in your leveling days.

My case: I don't know why the fuck you wanted to tango with that subject because I didn't say /nin was absolutely needed, I just said it was essential. It is. I understand your point but you're not getting the bigger picture here. In any case, your character is yours, do whatever the fuck you want. I'm not paying for your account. And I am in no way saying change is a bad thing, or discovering new combos. I'm also not saying /nin is the best combo. There's a difference between best and essential. In parties, do what works for you, but if you become a sponge for the mages, that's on you.

My original response was to get people on the right track and support them with their main job decision with factual information. They can do whatever they want, I'm just speaking from experience.

[Bionic Fireman]

I find it funny you act like I haven't played this game myself up to 75. I, believe it or not, am speaking from experience too. You haven't told me anything I didn't already know.

Your only error is using the word 'essential' to describe the value of a ninja subjob. Ninja isn't 'essential'; it's 'useful' at best, 'average' every other time. Keep on spouting the same mis-informed judgment almost every other player in the damn game holds if you like, doesn't change the fact /nin is a fall-back for people who have no idea how to play their job correctly or have no imagination.

And this, Spectre, is the sort of crap you'll probably end up having to deal with throughout the game if you DON'T fall in line to some majority job combination or party setup.

[Pridewolf]

Lol, you are so thickheaded it is unbelievable... I'm just trying to help the guy wow. Your logic fails, and I cannot continue because this argument has turned into a joke. Spectre, try it out for yourself, and you'll see why people think the way they do. They actually have a method to their madness. As for you Jim, that's your opinion, and if it works for you then fine. I'm not saying to change your style of playing. I'm just stating what will work well by consensus and trial and error.

[AlphaJew]

Jim. You're wrong.

Are you Japanese? If not, you haven't been playing FFXI since before ninja was an option.

Some subjobs are required. Let's see a paladin tank Cerberus without /NIN. It doesn't happen. Jwb couldn't do it, and we've got some of the best healers in the game behind his Aegis and Excalibur. DRKs sub /NIN when they Kraken Dynamis Lord, otherwise they get one shotted. THFs sub /NIN because pulling is that much safer with it. WARs sub it for the added TP generation of dual wield and as a backup/off-tank. Is it the best for every situation? Absolutely not. But you're fooling yourself if you don't level it for the sole reason that you don't want to be a 'cookie cutter'.

Go kill AV with your "equally effective combo"s, and then we'll talk. Sorry bud, I'm holding the experience card here.

Anyways, to answer your question Spectre. That's a perfectly fine plan. If you're looking for a bit quicker way to do it, take WAR to 18 or 20, pick up your subjob and level monk to 15. That will clear the way for you to get WAR to 30 since you'll want WAR up there for subjobs. From there, you have a few options. You'll want to unlock both RNG and NIN, whether you do that now or later is your decision. From that point, you'll probably need to level something up higher to be able to unlock COR. By that point, you should have a good feel for the game. RNG can be fairly expensive, but is a good lead-up to COR. RNG teaches you to manage your ranged attacks, so it'll be second nature by the time you have to balance them with your dice rolls on COR. Decide what's best for you, and what you'll enjoy though. Like stated above though, both WAR, RNG, and NIN are all acceptable subs for COR, situation permitting. If you're in a party situation wanting you to pull, /NIN provides excellent protection for pulling along with the access to offhand weapons for nice perks like a second Hawker's Knife or such. /WAR and /RNG both provide excellent boosts to your damage output.

[Quanta]

My question is "Why are you talking about endgame at all?" He just got the game ffs, like he's going to give a shit about how to fight Fafhogg or any of that other endgame shit. Just stick to basic leveling, questing, and mission advice and when he's ready to kill himself, then you can talk about HNMs and Dynamis and Sky and Sea and whatever other crap is going on these days that I'm sure is just the toast of the Blue Gartr forums or wherever all the asshole LSes hang out these days. :awesome:

[Pridewolf]

My question is "Why are you talking about endgame at all?" He just got the game ffs, like he's going to give a shit about how to fight Fafhogg or any of that other endgame shit. Just stick to basic leveling, questing, and mission advice and when he's ready to kill himself, then you can talk about HNMs and Dynamis and Sky and Sea and whatever other crap is going on these days that I'm sure is just the toast of the Blue Gartr forums or wherever all the asshole LSes hang out these days. :awesome:

They hang out here: http://killingifrit.com/

:D

[Incognecron]

Then again, all the jobs I got up into the high sixties and seventies (Dragoon, Samurai, and Dark Knight) never really benefited a whole lot from ninja (Don't say Drk/Nin; double axes is a retarded idea and you know it).



Lol, Kraken Club.

[Quanta]

They hang out here: http://killingifrit.com/

:D
I forgot all about that site. I avoided that place like the plague, because it always seemed to have the worst signal-to-noise ratio of any other site. I mean, Allakhazam was better than KI, and Allakhazam has always been pretty shitty. :/

[Spectre]

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/watermark.php?src=wp-content/uploads/2007/05/i-lold.jpg
At first, I was like shut the fuck up you fucking niggers.

Then I just laughed at all of this.


Also Pride, essentials definition is in fact "absolutely necessary". Which if a single class is required for a lot of people, the game is severely broken. I actually understand why considering I've read up quite a bit on this before hand, /nin gives tanks and pullers a method to migrate damage to clones instead of themselves, and allows duel wielding for the pullers or ranged dmg dealers.

The problem is that, for effective range DPS, I see /rng absolutely needed above /nin and /war. Besides the 4 or 5 abilities I'll get, the skills bonus in marks should would be beneficial.

Also, like I said, even though I seemed to have been joking when I said it, I absolutely refuse to be a pirate-ninja. Fuck that. It's a good possibility that I will have a group to play with that will be fine with cor/rng, which seems to be the most popular.

If the need arises, I guess I could level Ninja, but I shouldn't have too, I plan to play ranged dmg/support. I'm sure the plethora of rng/nin's can pull for us.

[Kash]

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/watermark.php?src=wp-content/uploads/2007/05/i-lold.jpg
At first, I was like shut the fuck up you fucking niggers.

Then I just laughed at all of this.


Also Pride, essentials definition is in fact "absolutely necessary". Which if a single class is required for a lot of people, the game is severely broken. I actually understand why considering I've read up quite a bit on this before hand, /nin gives tanks and pullers a method to migrate damage to clones instead of themselves, and allows duel wielding for the pullers or ranged dmg dealers.

The problem is that, for effective range DPS, I see /rng absolutely needed above /nin and /war. Besides the 4 or 5 abilities I'll get, the skills bonus in marks should would be beneficial.

Also, like I said, even though I seemed to have been joking when I said it, I absolutely refuse to be a pirate-ninja. Fuck that. It's a good possibility that I will have a group to play with that will be fine with cor/rng, which seems to be the most popular.

If the need arises, I guess I could level Ninja, but I shouldn't have too, I plan to play ranged dmg/support. I'm sure the plethora of rng/nin's can pull for us.

Pirate/Ninja?

that's just impossible, they hate each other.

[Pridewolf]

As I said before, I'm just offering suggestions; it's your game though so you can do whatever you want if it works for you :)

[Shadow Turkey]

No, I would not defile the win and awesomeness of the pirate with the utter failure and faggotry of ninja.

I would literally back hand you IRL if you suggested such bullshit.

I actually agree with you for once.

[Seraphna]

WAR/WHM:
"HAY GUYZ LOOK AT MY LEET HEALZ I IS A PALADIN LOL"

Ever consider completing the quest and becoming a PLD?

Uhhh... yeah...

1) Ninja is in no way essential to anything beyond specific NM and HNM fights and those weird WoW-esque events that SE seems to be trying to put out with each expansion pack. You obviously never played the game before Ninja ever even existed.

Garrison and Bastille are so unlike WoW PvP it's not even funny. If you're trying to say the Wings of the Goddess SL missions are anything like Caverns of time, I question if you've ever played either game. If you're not Japanese, you've never played FFXI without Ninjas.

Also to further the BS, Ninja is an amazing Subjob for Dancer, which is my character leveling goal.

2) Endgame =\= the entire gaming experience. Endgame = a way for SE to milk more money out of their subscribers after they level a few jobs up to max level and have really nothing else to do. With all the storyline crap they keep putting in, Endgame won't be all too necessary for at least a year or so. Please do not try to tell me you need everybody down to the last person a very specific job combination for any of these events with no leeway because I already know such an elitist sentiment is pure bullshit.

Funny considering "endgame" in SE can be done long before cap level, as you're trying to make reference to.

3) Don't even try to say /nin is essential for PvP. /Nin in PvP is for people who can't play their job properly and need a fall-back.

Nin is a good support or main for DPSing or, if skilled enough, even Tanking. If you don't have the job I'm sorry, but slamming everyone that plays the class is just weak.

4) I actually DID have a ninja to 37 because idiots decided that job combos like War/Nin and Thf/Nin were required by law and I was tired of playing solo because some people have their head stuck so far up their own ass that they start to actually leave out their mouth. You can name any nin job combo you want and I can name an equally effective combo not involving the letters "nin". This is assuming said person knows what the hell he's doing. Your right in saying /nin is essential when playing with a community whom screams jobs like dragoon and monk suddenly suck more than a Malaysian prostitute merely because the TP gain on their multi-hit weapon skills were reduced (Oh, how I remember those days...).

DNC / NIN

One of the main reasons I quit in the first place was because everyone save for a few people were brainwashed stupids spouting the same narrow-minded crap they heard from the next brainwashed stupid.

Who's narrow minded here?

[Kaze]

So in the end we come to the conclusion that Mithra are hot? Because I think Mithra are pretty hot and I'd fully support a conclusion that supports Mithra and the act of being hot.

[Seraphna]

*giggles*

Yes, yes we are.

[Kaze]

Then you have my full and undivided attention and support.

Also guys, WHM/BLM... WHAT'S UP WITH THAT? I mean geeze gaiz. =\

[Spectre]

Then you have my full and undivided attention and support.

Also guys, WHM/BLM... WHAT'S UP WITH THAT? I mean geeze gaiz. =\

If that's actually someones endgame class, they're fucking retarded.

WHM/SCH
BLM/SCH
or Sch/switch between /WHM and /BLM would be so much better

[AlphaJew]

/BLM provides...
Elemental Seal: Have an add and really want to make sure it's slept, or a caster mob that you want to Silence with your mediocre enfeebling skill? There ya go.
Conserve MP: One of the most underrated traits. Randomly saves you mana. When your 135 MP Cure V only costs you 67 MP, you'll understand.
Warp: While not having practical use in a party, it's damn convenient.
Tractor: Have to raise someone whose body is sitting underneath a pile of mobs that aggro?
Escape: Again, useful for getting your entire party out of a tight spot, also very useful for navigating around Sky.
Sleep/Sleepga: Not as useful anymore with the advent of Repose, but Sleepga + Elemental Seal is still a good way to keep a whole bunch of mobs under control.

Scholar cannot cast Stona or AoE heal on demand without /WHM. And even then they cap out at Curaga II. WHM still reigns supreme for healing, particularly in the mana and hate efficiency category via Regen III and Cure V.

[Seraphna]

IMO, people need to look at Scholar more like a RDM on Crack and less like one of the two core casters.

[Spectre]

IMO, people need to look at Scholar more like a RDM on Crack and less like one of the two core casters.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8417/lolschcc4.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lolschcc4.jpg)

At least for a sub, Sch seems superior than the two core casters.

[AlphaJew]

My gripe with that scenario: That's a RDM main. Elemental, Divine, Dark skill and all is great. RDM's two main skills are enfeebling and enhancing. I don't see those two skills changing at all. /WHM is still the only sub that provides -na spells to a RDM main.

Again, WHM/SCH? Sure the Drain and Aspir may be better with Dark Arts active, if you had the INT to back it up. Healing skill means absolutely jack until you get Cure V, and even then it doesn't do very much.

And for the record, that RDM sucks.
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7721/enfeebling3348xq.jpg
Has since been raised to 339 with Nashira Seraweels.

I'm not wanting to be one and trying not to sound like an asshole, but FFXI by design forces players to specialize their character and dedicate themselves to that specialization. Hybrid possibilities are few and far between, and rarely as effective at either of the two roles they try to fulfill. I could bore you to death with how FFXI is Japanese in design, how it emphasizes success of a group as a whole while downplaying the role of the individual, but that's a conversation for another time and place. The core issue is that while some may not, there will be those who ridicule non-conventional job/subjob combos, and would you rather take the efficient and well tested route or work doubly hard for the same result for the sake of not being a "cookie cutter"?

[Seraphna]

Cuz WoW and every other MMO out there doesn't force things to a Cookie Cutter... UO that didn't even have classes totally didn't do cookie cutter either.

Hint: They all did. They all do. You can't really have a group RPG that doesn't have discernible roles.

[Sanjiyan]

EVE online : D

[Kash]

borefest D :

more like snorefest!

[Sanjiyan]

more like snorefest!

ITT Kash has the attention span of all americans when confronted with something other than fast food or revolvers, i.e. 3 seconds.

[Kash]

lets see 4 hour tutorial. check
must fly for 2 hours to get to a spot shoot a guy down which takes about 5 seconds, then fly away again. check
I know people who play the game and I've watched them, 90% of the game is flying from place to place. check


lets see if I add all this up it equals. MOST BORING ASS GAME EVER MADE.

[Sanjiyan]

if it takes you 4 hours to complete the tutorial then my god you ARE retarded

seriously it took me 10 minutes
Also I spend 90% of my time blowing the shit out of IIMis rats, having had to make two jumps from agent to mission and back again. Ergo, your statement is uninformed bollocks.

[Spectre]

Cuz WoW and every other MMO out there doesn't force things to a Cookie Cutter... UO that didn't even have classes totally didn't do cookie cutter either.

Hint: They all did. They all do. You can't really have a group RPG that doesn't have discernible roles.

While it's needed, at least WoW made other options perfectly viable. Again, some options in FFXI would be stupid. But some wouldn't be.

Regardless, I don't care anymore. I'm playing COR/RNG.

[Incognecron]

Wurds


Nuh Uh, pre Age of Shadows you could play UO and never even take part in combat if you didn't want to. I had a character for ship building, a blacksmith for my own armor and trade, and rogue. Only one ever had to fight to get gear/profit.

[AlphaJew]

While it's needed, at least WoW made other options perfectly viable. Again, some options in FFXI would be stupid. But some wouldn't be.

Regardless, I don't care anymore. I'm playing COR/RNG.

I will admit that /SCH for a mage main is more towards the good side of the scale than bad. It has its perks, I just personally don't feel that they outweigh the perks offered by other subs by any means. But you'll definitely get invites over the WAR/WHMs and RDM/DRKs.

COR/RNG is perfectly viable, and will be a good addition to almost any party. :D

I still say, though, that at some point you're probably going to want to have /NIN at your disposal though. At least unlock it and get it to 12 for Utsusemi: Ichi. But again, your call.

[Spectre]

I still say, though, that at some point you're probably going to want to have /NIN at your disposal though. At least unlock it and get it to 12 for Utsusemi: Ichi. But again, your call.

I would rather kill myself then defile the awesomeness that is the Pirate with the failure that is the Ninja.

[Pridewolf]

Very well then... your choice to make :/ I'm just saying that if you are to continue on that main job, you will, whether you want to or not, level that sub. Just saying.

[Seraphna]

Nuh Uh, pre Age of Shadows you could play UO and never even take part in combat if you didn't want to. I had a character for ship building, a blacksmith for my own armor and trade, and rogue. Only one ever had to fight to get gear/profit.

Congrats on arguing against specified skillset roles with specified skillset roles.

[Incognecron]

Congrats on arguing against specified skillset roles with specified skillset roles.

Oh yeah, here's the crazy shit; I could change the formula and match any skills I wanted at any time. There wasn't a gigantic penalty for being a warrior and an alchemist, it was certainly alot more manageable compared to games like FFXI and WoW where your class can be "not be player right", because there are no classes. You choose your skills and how far you take them, nothing you play even does that. Other games you named don't even offer a character capable of moving forward without combat.

[Seraphna]

I fail to see where in either game, FFXI or WoW, being a Warrior and an Alchemist was ever a bad thing. :)

I can very easily point out as well that FFXI lets you change jobs at any time, crafting is open to anyone and you can easily train up skills without ever picking up a sword.

While WoW Professions are tied to level, it's also fair to point out you can easily play the game outside of combat. I know plenty of people on RP servers that never level, yet get hours of entertainment out of the game, and I even know a level 2 priest with 50k gold, all he does all day is play the AH.

Just because you've convinced yourself restrictions exist doesn't mean they're actually there.

[Incognecron]

I fail to see where in either game, FFXI or WoW, being a Warrior and an Alchemist was ever a bad thing. :)

I can very easily point out as well that FFXI lets you change jobs at any time, crafting is open to anyone and you can easily train up skills without ever picking up a sword.

While WoW Professions are tied to level, it's also fair to point out you can easily play the game outside of combat. I know plenty of people on RP servers that never level, yet get hours of entertainment out of the game, and I even know a level 2 priest with 50k gold, all he does all day is play the AH.

Just because you've convinced yourself restrictions exist doesn't mean they're actually there.

I haven't convinced myself of anything, I actually played UO. :wink:

Yeah you can change jobs in FFXI, but most of them require you level first so you can at least reach them. And some require you do some kind of combat; all skills are open to any player from the character inception in UO. Not to mention the kinds of combinations available in UO were farmore customizable than "damage mage" "heal mage" "heal sword" etc.

Also your WoW example is moot, in UO every server was an RP server ( and PVE, and PVP) :). You pointed out a few flukes in the system that the game doesn't even support. That's great that your level two friend has 50K gold, what can he do with it though? buy some level two blues? a mount? The game doesn't support having that much gold unless you're a reasonable level. In Ultima it wasn't just a gimmick it was a rewarding path that allowed for actual progression and was a support beam in the player economy. Crafting in both FFXI and WoW is more like a gimmick, it's to distract you between grinding quest and give you equal level gear whereas in UO it was an important part of the game and actually rewarding.


This is my last response too, I hate stinking up threads with this crap. Considering you're a moderator if you want to pretend to talk down to me about a game I player for 6 years + feel free to PM me.

[Spectre]

Very well then... your choice to make :/ I'm just saying that if you are to continue on that main job, you will, whether you want to or not, level that sub. Just saying.

You've yet to explain why I need /nin as a Cor/

[Pridewolf]

You've yet to explain why I need /nin as a Cor/

I've explained it several times: pulling. You have ranged attack, someone isn't always going to pull for you. Shadows will protect you from three blows while you make your way back to the camp, and you are surprisingly weak in taking damage with /rng. More times than not while pulling without shadows, you're gonna be low on hp or even dead, thus causing more downtime for the party and headaches for the whm. In being a white mage for so long, I can attest that it is quite annoying to cure a sponge or raise someone who didn't have shadows. You won't always pull, of course, in which case /rng is better than fine, but you can only get away without /nin for so long. In the end, you ARE going to level it.

[Seraphna]

I haven't convinced myself of anything, I actually played UO. :wink:

Y HALO THAR, so did I. Remember that talk about assuming shit?

Yeah you can change jobs in FFXI, but most of them require you level first so you can at least reach them. And some require you do some kind of combat; all skills are open to any player from the character inception in UO. Not to mention the kinds of combinations available in UO were farmore customizable than "damage mage" "heal mage" "heal sword" etc.

All of the base "roles" in any party are accessible off the bat, all other classes are more or less extensions of those core classes, so the point is in fact, moot.

Also your WoW example is moot, in UO every server was an RP server ( and PVE, and PVP) :).

The fact that every server is an RP server in UO really doesn't mitigate the fact that you can RP in WoW. Nice try.

You pointed out a few flukes in the system that the game doesn't even support. That's great that your level two friend has 50K gold, what can he do with it though? buy some level two blues? a mount? The game doesn't support having that much gold unless you're a reasonable level.


50k gold is enough to fully outfit a level 70 with BOE Epics and an Epic Flying mount. How long have you been away from the game? THe players goal however, in this instance, was met, he just wanted to rule the server's economy, and he does.

In Ultima it wasn't just a gimmick it was a rewarding path that allowed for actual progression and was a support beam in the player economy. Crafting in both FFXI and WoW is more like a gimmick, it's to distract you between grinding quest and give you equal level gear whereas in UO it was an important part of the game and actually rewarding.

A gimmick that met it's end when people realised that the shards could be overdeveloped and eventually so overpopulated with finished works that new players couldn't get off the ground. To really explore some of the content in UO, you had to PvE like any other game, and guess what, you needed a role to get around in to do so.

This is my last response too, I hate stinking up threads with this crap. Considering you're a moderator if you want to pretend to talk down to me about a game I player for 6 years + feel free to PM me.

Copout. But all I really have to do is split this off and move it into general. I've however always allowed debates if they are direct tangets from the subject, this is.

[Mibu Wolf]

Fangless, I'm sorry, but storming off and saying, in essence "Stfu n00b, im l337 haxx0rz lulz gtfo my g4me" isn't making a good case.

I think you may have missed a few points too. I will say now that I have never played FFXI, but one thing I know it has is a leveling system, partnered with a profession system. In many games, you have a profession system where you find items and make them into better items you can use, such as wool cloth into wool robes, or the skin of an animal into leather armor. Now, as you can't go putting your [Sword of Flaming Pwn] on a level two, because the [Sword of Flaming Pwn] can only be equipped by a higher level. It doesn't matter if you stand around taking the crushed clover from the dire rabbits until you have enough to make your [Sword of Flaming Pwn] , you can't equip it until you're high enough level, otherwise it would be unfair to the other players who've only just started playing, and keep on losing to you in everything, be it combat, quests, embroydery contests, anything really. Also, as most professions require the player to gather resorces (and where do those come from? monsters or monster-infested areas), and if you are going to do that, you need to be able to get to the items you need. To get there, it is generally a good idea to live the whole way. To do that, it is generally accepted that being able to fight off something that is attacking you is a sure-fire way to get to the item you need faster, and pick of a few extra gold/gil/munny along the way.

This is why professions are tied into leveling, to preserve fairness, and bridge the gap between the people who think that two minuets on a hot-pocket is unreasonable, and the people with more patience than God.

[Incognecron]

asfd

If you think this pertains to what the thread was made for I have no problem talking about this.

First off I know the classes in final fantasy are extensions, the point is you still have to level to reach them. I'm still not quite sure what the point is you're trying to get at though because you still have to unlock them regardless, and theres only one way to do it.

I guess proved your point about the 50K gold guy, yeah he can fully deck out a level 70; the game still forces him to be a certain level before its any use to his character though. He owns the economy but theres no real point to it when the GM's take X amount of gold out of the game because of the farmers.


And you're wrong about over development, I joined Napa Valley in the heart of the population boom. I had friends that already played and they helped me out with my first combat character, but eventually let go of the handlebars and let me steer myself. I really didn't enjoy combat on my first character so I dedicated myself to treasure hunting by ship, I built my own and had adventures with my friends where I never even had to use my sword. After a couple of months I had my gear, most of the armor the same quality as of that which my friends who'd been playing longer than me had. And I always got brought along on cave raids too despite my atrophied 'skillz'. :nyah:


And I'm not responding to you mibu because I have no clue what the fuck you're even trying to say.

[Seraphna]

If you think this pertains to what the thread was made for I have no problem talking about this.

Good.

First off I know the classes in final fantasy are extensions, the point is you still have to level to reach them. I'm still not quite sure what the point is you're trying to get at though because you still have to unlock them regardless, and theres only one way to do it.

Yes, though your original point was that people have to go through all sorts of hurdles to change a basic role of their character, my point rebuttalled that, the rest of this is just distracting from the rebuttal.

I guess proved your point about the 50K gold guy, yeah he can fully deck out a level 70; the game still forces him to be a certain level before its any use to his character though. He owns the economy but theres no real point to it when the GM's take X amount of gold out of the game because of the farmers.

...What does this do to him? Other then make him wealthier? When currency's frequency lessens the amount existing becomes more valuable. GMs don't remove gold from active, legal characters, they remove gold by deleting farmer accounts, thus killing whatever gold they have in their inventories.

And you're wrong about over development, I joined Napa Valley in the heart of the population boom. I had friends that already played and they helped me out with my first combat character, but eventually let go of the handlebars and let me steer myself. I really didn't enjoy combat on my first character so I dedicated myself to treasure hunting by ship, I built my own and had adventures with my friends where I never even had to use my sword. After a couple of months I had my gear, most of the armor the same quality as of that which my friends who'd been playing longer than me had. And I always got brought along on cave raids too despite my atrophied 'skillz'. :nyah:

1. You eventually filled a role, making your own point moot.

2. Napa Valley is really hard to get started on now.

[Spectre]

In the end, you ARE going to level it.
Still not going to. I'm not going to level a sub class for how useful one thing as pulling will be when I will lose several abilities and stats that would buff my damage output.

[Incognecron]

Good.

I still don't think having to play a class you don't want to so you can actually play the character the way you wanted is very open or cool, UO did'nt do that and soon Wow will join Final Fantasy in making this the only way to play certain classes.

And I don't think you can persuade me that the 50K guy is content, he make think he is but in Old UO he could of done anything with that gold. Certainly everything else "higher" players around him had access too like rare cloth and his own mount.


I filled a role, but I didn't have to do it in the way WoW and FFXI both force you too, so this alone sets old UO apart.

I quit legit servers a long time ago when artifacts were introduced, and quit playing private servers because it inevitably ends up with favored players.

[Pridewolf]

Still not going to. I'm not going to level a sub class for how useful one thing as pulling will be when I will lose several abilities and stats that would buff my damage output.

As I said, its up to you lol. You'll see for yourself though, if you ever get high enough to understand. But I'm done, do as you wish.

[Spectre]

As I said, its up to you lol. You'll see for yourself though, if you ever get high enough to understand. But I'm done, do as you wish.

I'll quit the game if I'm not able to play a perfectly viable class/sub.

[AlphaJew]

the people who think that two minuets on a hot-pocket is unreasonable,
I personally find one minuet and one madrigal far better. HAR HAR I CRACK MYSELF UP.:lol:

COR/RNG will be fine and still get invites. But be aware that if a party has 5 members and needs a puller, that's one less party that will be inviting you. It's your choice.

As a side note, you are aware the COR is less of a ranged DPS class and more of a bard with a gun, yes? Your damage dealing is a small fraction of what people invite you for, what people really want are your dice rolls. They want their attack power/accuracy on their melees and MP restore on their casters. And that is all the same, regardless of your subjob.

And Fangless, get over yourself. "I wanna play the game like I want to, but I don't want to abide by the limitations that the game designers put in place to ensure balance!" You don't wanna play FFXI or WoW because of those limitations? Square-Enix and Blizzard are more likely to tell you to shove your $15 you-know-where than listen to whiny little children like you. Learn the systems and learn how to make do with what you're given, complaining about it is only going to piss people off.

[Pridewolf]

I'll quit the game if I'm not able to play a perfectly viable class/sub.

Dude, I said Cor/Rng was fine, better than fine, it's a hell of a good combo that you can probably use more times than not. All I'm saying is that situationally you WILL need /nin if you are to use Cor as your main job, it's a small sacrifice to be done to just level it. Here, I'll give you an example. Rdms typically sub whm and blm right? Situationally, for missions, events, or even some combat, they are -required- to sub /drk for CS Stun. If they don't have it the group has a higher chance of losing the said mission or event. That's just an example. Another would be the fact that, for instance a thf/war is great for damage... but they lose the bonus of an offhand dagger, and the shadows of /nin when pulling or after obtaining hate from sneak attack. Take it as you will, hell you can go all the way to 75 on corsair with just that one sub, but you'll never be at your best unless you level the others too. It's not impossible to level more than one subjob to better your mainjob.

[Spectre]

You don't seem to understand me. Do you think I am joking when I say I refuse to defile the awesome of a pirate? I'm not, I would honestly rather quit the game after getting to 70 then be a cor/nin. I absolutely refuse to. I will do any other class, not ninja though.

[Seraphna]

I still don't think having to play a class you don't want to so you can actually play the character the way you wanted is very open or cool, UO did'nt do that and soon Wow will join Final Fantasy in making this the only way to play certain classes.

Did you literally just say "I hate these games because it forces me to play a class I want to play but do not actually want to be."??

And I don't think you can persuade me that the 50K guy is content, he make think he is but in Old UO he could of done anything with that gold. Certainly everything else "higher" players around him had access too like rare cloth and his own mount.

I certainly can persuade you, not everyone is an indecisive malcontent unable to decide what they want out of a game. Hell, in FFXI it's been a known part of both the game manual and strategy guide that they even suggest "economically inclined" players could enjoy hours of simply playing the market and building a craft without ever leaving a city.

I filled a role, but I didn't have to do it in the way WoW and FFXI both force you too, so this alone sets old UO apart.

You did, you're just trying to justify it now.

I quit legit servers a long time ago when artifacts were introduced, and quit playing private servers because it inevitably ends up with favored players.

Sounds like you're simply a self unmotivated player to me.

COR/RNG will be fine and still get invites. But be aware that if a party has 5 members and needs a puller, that's one less party that will be inviting you. It's your choice.

Not to be crude, but couldn't you say that about any party that still needs a healer or a tank? Puller is just another base role in FFXI, he's not going for that role.

As a side note, you are aware the COR is less of a ranged DPS class and more of a bard with a gun, yes? Your damage dealing is a small fraction of what people invite you for, what people really want are your dice rolls. They want their attack power/accuracy on their melees and MP restore on their casters. And that is all the same, regardless of your subjob.

And people invite THFs for the purposes of increasing Gil and Treasure drops, doesn't mean they can't contribute.

[Sanjiyan]

I have no beard and I must shave

[Incognecron]

Did you literally jus

Yeah I really hated Final Fantasy XI.

It might be me but I was extremely dissatisfied with final fantasy's craft system. I'm sure it was just me but by the time I was able to get into blacksmithing it seemed ridiculous to me that it took so much just to make swords I could of used thirteen levels ago; I much rather enjoyed WoW's crafting where I could at least use equipment I made as well as sell it.

I'm justifying it because even if I did "fill a role", theres easily hundred's of combinations on UO where you're stuck with what? 12-16 classes in both WoW and FFXI. And they're were all much more customizable.

Yeah you're right, destroying the player-based economy and completely unbalancing the combat system unmotivated the shit out of me. I mostly play WoW because of my wife now so I am motivated.

[Pridewolf]

Not to be crude, but couldn't you say that about any party that still needs a healer or a tank? Puller is just another base role in FFXI, he's not going for that role.

Whether he's going for that role or not is besides the point though, he will at one point or another have to do it. If you play a puller-type job you will be expected to pull. And on the subject of Samurai or warriors with ranged attack, warriors will sub ninja for utsusemi between pulls, samurai don't need it due to third eye, so they can survive as is. Cor has nothing better to go on, but they will need to pull at some point or another. DRK also have some ranged attack options, but they're not considered pullers due to incredibly low defense and the fact that sub ninja at low levels is not worth crap to them since they'll hit for less, when hitting hard is their main concern. Besides, they get an att+ ranged item at mid levels, which helps them hit harder, therefore making bows obsolete.

And people invite THFs for the purposes of increasing Gil and Treasure drops, doesn't mean they can't contribute.

Actually, THFs help tanks keep hate. At low levels they have sneak attack, which stacks with a weapon skill to make them hit for a really hard blow. Level 30 they get trick attack. If they use the subtank -->mob<-- tank <-- thf strategy, sneak attack and trick attack stack. Use them together and/or with a weapon skill and the tank will gain a lot of hate before he even provokes. At level 60 its even easier because the thf will not have to stand behind the mob to get hate on the tank, so the tank can keep hate from the beginning and still get more from trick attack (alone). (Sneak attack and trick attack at level 60+ are stronger individual instead of stacked due to a job trait). So in reality, they are pullers -and- damage dealers, with treasure hunter as a bonus.

[Spectre]

I was under the impression that one can only change their jobs from their moogle house or from a nomad moogle

[Quanta]

I was under the impression that one can only change their jobs from their moogle house or from a nomad moogle
That's correct, but being away from either of those won't save you from having to switch subjobs should your group ask you to.

[Spectre]

That's correct, but being away from either of those won't save you from having to switch subjobs should your group ask you to.

warriors will sub ninja for utsusemi between pullsI was referencing this.

[Quanta]

I was referencing this.
Ah. What he means by that is that a warrior will use NIN as his sub so that he can cast Utsusemi between pulls, so that when he has to go pull he won't get two-shotted by whatever he happens to bring back.

[AlphaJew]

Warriors come to XP parties as WAR/NIN because it provides them with a lot of flexibility. They have Utsusemi so they can pull safely, as well as the ability to the the subtank in the previously mentioned scenario with a THF pre-60. It also allows them to take the pressure off the tank safely, particularly a NIN tank, while not stopping or slowing their DPS. If a tank loses his shadows for whatever reason, a WAR has no problem provoking, tanking for a few seconds while the NIN gets his shadows back up. Being able to dual-wield used to be a large perk as well, increasing TP gain and allowing for various things such as wielding a Viking Axe in the offhand for a tremendous amount of accuracy, or a Joyeuse/Ridill for unparalleled TP generation. This does not hold as true anymore since 2H weapons were given a significant boost, but I'd expect dual-wielding still does respectable damage.

[Seraphna]

Whether he's going for that role or not is besides the point though, he will at one point or another have to do it. If you play a puller-type job you will be expected to pull. And on the subject of Samurai or warriors with ranged attack, warriors will sub ninja for utsusemi between pulls, samurai don't need it due to third eye, so they can survive as is. Cor has nothing better to go on, but they will need to pull at some point or another. DRK also have some ranged attack options, but they're not considered pullers due to incredibly low defense and the fact that sub ninja at low levels is not worth crap to them since they'll hit for less, when hitting hard is their main concern. Besides, they get an att+ ranged item at mid levels, which helps them hit harder, therefore making bows obsolete.

Actually, THFs help tanks keep hate. At low levels they have sneak attack, which stacks with a weapon skill to make them hit for a really hard blow. Level 30 they get trick attack. If they use the subtank -->mob<-- tank <-- thf strategy, sneak attack and trick attack stack. Use them together and/or with a weapon skill and the tank will gain a lot of hate before he even provokes. At level 60 its even easier because the thf will not have to stand behind the mob to get hate on the tank, so the tank can keep hate from the beginning and still get more from trick attack (alone). (Sneak attack and trick attack at level 60+ are stronger individual instead of stacked due to a job trait). So in reality, they are pullers -and- damage dealers, with treasure hunter as a bonus.

Very interesting! I'm gonna have to remember that. (I'm a THF)

[AlphaJew]

Yep, at 30 you're best off stacking Sneak and Trick if possible, since Trick grants no bonuses, only a hate transfer on the person in front of you.

Later on, SE gave THF's a boost, giving them the Assassin Job Trait that causes Trick to have a damage bonus similar to Sneak, regardless of the facing of the mob. That way the tank wasn't relying on an offtank to hold the mob while the THF SATA's onto the tank. Instead, the tank can just provoke off the bat, the THF can drop TA on the tank, and then SA from behind for a bit of extra damage. It also doesn't require a hate shift mid-fight for skillchains. Someone else can just use their WS, and the THF can TA+WS on the tank once again.

[Kaze]

I've had someone SATA on me just for giggles... I wasn't giggling. ; ; *WHM*

But yeah, yaddah yaddah, Rauli is on Fenrir now. <.<

[Pridewolf]

So be it ;(

[Seraphna]

I've had someone SATA on me just for giggles... I wasn't giggling. ; ; *WHM*

But yeah, yaddah yaddah, Rauli is on Fenrir now. <.<

MEIN WHM :3

[Kaze]

So be it ;(
Don't worry Pride, he'll make his glorious return one day... Think of it as a self-exile to perfect his skill.
MEIN WHM :3

*is claimed* X3

[Seraphna]

Don't worry Pride, he'll make his glorious return one day... Think of it as a self-exile to perfect his skill.

And if cards are played right, he'll have a DNC companion.

*is claimed* X3

:3

[Kaze]

Would it be safe to say from this point that Fenrir is a server with active VGC presence?

[Seraphna]

Yep yep.

Anyone new that wants to join us, ask me and I'll get you a Gold World Pass.

Anyone old... git over here!

We're also in a pretty active Linkshell, PheonixREY (something like a little over 100 pearl holders), and they're always eager to add to the flock.

[Kaze]

*stares at the lack of pearl by his name*

;~;

Oh hey, I didn't notice but I have a new linkshell ready to be opened in my inventory. 8D

[Seraphna]

*poke* :P

I have a Chozo Pearl for you too.

[Kaze]

<.<

>.>

X3!!

[Incognecron]

Anyone old... git over here!

I thought you were just being a prick when you did cult of kruglor, but jesus do you do this in every game? are you super spoiled or just hate joining other peoples servers dude?

[Kaze]

Aw, flaming, how cute.

[Seraphna]

I thought you were just being a prick when you did cult of kruglor, but jesus do you do this in every game? are you super spoiled or just hate joining other peoples servers dude?

I'm not even getting into the reasons the Cult fell, but if you really think it was me leaving that did it, you're more in the dark then I've ever thought you were. Back off, quit the flaming.

Very sorry if offering to help newbies out and bringing them together is somehow a horrible thing. Why the hell are you even looking in this forum anyways? Take a wrist slap for this shit, seriously.